Episode 4: Cover Cropping and Cattle with Allen Druffel
Allen Druffel at Bar Star Farms.
About the episode:
Join Ryan and Allen Druffel as they dig into the good, the bad, and the ugly of integrating cattle into the Bar Star Farms operation. They discuss how Allen got involved in the FLOURISH program and his experience with cattle, cover crop mixes, experimenting while keeping the family farm viable, and his thoughts on improving the soil for years to come.
Allen is a participant in the FLOURISH on-farm trials.
About the podcast:
Welcome to the FLOURISH Podcast, where we at the Palouse Conservation District interview farmers, ranchers, and researchers on topics related to conservation agriculture. FLOURISH, also known as Farmers Leading Our United Revolution in Soil Health, is a farmer-led conservation innovation project to support the widespread adoption of soil health practices by integrating cover crops and livestock into farming operations in the Inland Pacific Northwest. The ambitious purpose of FLOURISH is to not only regenerate our soils, but also our rural communities by creating opportunities for younger generations to return to productive, sustainable farms. On this podcast, we bring you updates from on-farm trials, research, findings, and advice from farmers.
The views and opinions expressed on the FLOURISH Podcast are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Palouse Conservation District or the USDA Conservation Innovation Grants program. Any content provided by our Guests are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company, individual, or anyone or anything.
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Introduction
Hello, and welcome to the FLOURISH Podcast, where we at the Palouse Conservation District interview farmers, ranchers, and researchers on topics and conservation agriculture. FLOURISH, also known as Farmers Leading our United Revolution in Soil Health, is a farmer-led conservation innovation project to support the widespread adoption of soil health practices by integrating cover crops and livestock into farming operations. The ambitious purpose of FLOURISH is to not only regenerate our soils, but also our rural communities by creating opportunities for younger generations to return to productive sustainable farms. On this podcast, we bring you updates from on-farm trials, research findings, and advice from farmers.
Ryan Boylan (01:03):
Welcome back everyone. I'm here today on Bar Star Farms in Colton, Washington with Allen Druffel. Allen, welcome.
Allen Druffel (01:10):
Thank you for having me.
Ryan Boylan (01:12):
I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your farm, where it is, how much rain you get.
Allen Druffel (01:18):
Never enough rain <laugh>. We're in Southeast Whitman County, farm Colton and Uniontown, and as well as south of Lewiston, Idaho in the Tammany area. It's pretty diverse for rainfall. The lower country gets about eight inches up to 20 plus on some of our better farms. do everything from wheat fallow to pretty intense multi-year rotations. Try to raise different crops, so not just wheat and barley. We do garbanzos peas, canola mustard, flax, oats, do a little alfalfa, and as well as dabbling in some cows.
Ryan Boylan (01:56):
Cool. Yeah, we're excited to talk about cows <laugh>.
Allen Druffel (02:00):
I'm more excited to talk about 'em than have 'em <laugh>, so.
Ryan Boylan (02:02):
That's good! Yeah. So one of the goals of having this podcast is that we're just talking to a bunch of the farmers that are participating in the FLOURISH Project, which again, is Farmers Leading Our United Revolution In Soil Health. And I'm just, I know you've been experimenting with cover crops and different crop rotations for a long time. I was wondering if you could talk maybe a little bit about that, and then what got you interested in joining the program?
Allen Druffel (02:27):
Yeah. We got started in cover crops with the idea of bettering the soil and decreasing our synthetic inputs. That's the goal. You know, we want to have a healthy soil that revitalizes itself and provides more of the nutrients than us just streaming on the synthetics. So that, that's why we started. We, you know, and you're, well, probably 10 years ago, multi-species cover crops, 10, 12 species in a mix. We kinda had this idea that we'd go out and we'd plant those and overnight our soil would become a garden and we could reduce all our inputs by about half.
Ryan Boylan (03:01):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah <laugh>.
Allen Druffel (03:01):
And life was good. It didn't work that way. We, we've really learned a lot. Um, and these multi-species stuff, different blends, and whether you're grass heavy or forb heavy or summer annuals, winter annuals, warm season, cool season, it, it all matters. And so when you go into cover cropping, you really have to have a specific goal in mind for that crop. So that's, that's how we got started. Um, did that for quite a while. The more we learn about it, the more animal integrations seems to be the route that we're gonna have to go if we really want to utilize cover crops to their full potential.
Ryan Boylan (03:39):
Yeah. Is that because, it would like help fill a gap for not taking like a commodity crop off of that piece of ground, or?
Allen Druffel (03:46):
I think that's, that's one of the goals with the animals. To try to have a little potential income in that year. I'm not sure converting covers into protein is a reality financially. But if you can factor in what you're doing for the soil, possibly. And so that's, it's, boy, it's a long term game. Yeah. I, the one year, and I have figured out maybe someone else has, but this single year financial aspect of this seems like it's gonna be a loser.
Ryan Boylan (04:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (04:19):
So, but, hopefully, hopefully we're gonna reap the benefits from one year loss for multiple years. And if you can amortize that over out that over 10 years, then the one year of covers and animals, could really have a good payback for you.
Ryan Boylan (04:36):
Yeah. That's cool. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about, um, just how you're fitting…maybe you could talk about your crop rotation and then how cover crops are fitting into that?
Allen Druffel (04:46):
Yeah, traditional cover crop and our cows are on our higher rainfall stuff right now. I haven't moved them into low rainfall. It's easier, just 'cause that's where my house is located. It's on kind of the better soil of, of our farm. I wanted the cows close to it. Mm-Hmm. And so really, that, that was the decision as to where they are. It is logistically it's easy. And so, in that particular rainfall zone, we're a three year rotation. Most of it's winter wheat, spring grain, spring pulse, or spring brassica. And of those three rotations, eight out of 10 years, the one that makes the least amount of money is spring grain. Whether that's spring barley or spring wheat. And so I'm taking that one out of rotation.
Ryan Boylan (05:29):
Oh, cool.
Allen Druffel (05:30):
So that, that was the reason for that. But now, you know, thanks to FLOURISH, which is providing us a little financial assistance, I'm gonna try taking for four years straight and putting just cows in cover and seeing what that will do for the long term. So health benefits, if, if we can just start taking small acreages out, focusing on the soil health and a break from the heavy loads of synthetics, you know, salt heavy inputs, and try to get the biologies to start cycling naturally.
Ryan Boylan (05:58):
So it's funny, there's 27 farmers participating, and I'd say after last year, 10 of them are gonna leave the cover crops in the same place.
Allen Druffel (6:05):
<laugh> Are they?
Ryan Boylan (6:06):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is like, is very cool. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (06:08):
Well, I think part of that is, you know, we can church it up and make it sound cool, and that we're doing this strictly for agronomic reasons, but it's also, we're pretty lazy. And once you have the infrastructure there, it is significantly easier. Yeah. I don't think any of us realized how hard setting up the infrastructure would be. You know, it, it seems easy to go string a hot wire and take a couple of gallons of water out to 'em, but in reality it's not. There's a lot of water and a lot that goes into making that hot wire sound.
Ryan Boylan (06:39):
Yeah. It was funny when we were out in your plots this summer, I remember <laugh> the first time I walked, I was like, oh, whoa, this is like way bigger. Just 'cause like, you, you had to spray where all the hot wire was. Yeah. And then everything <laugh>. It like, yeah. And I, that was like things I hadn't thought of before.
Allen Druffel (06:54):
Yeah. Well, and I, I, the first year we did it, I didn't recognize that either. And so what'll happen is that cover crop will grow up into your electric fence and it grounds it . And it makes it useless.
Ryan Boylan (07:03):
And then your cows are <laugh>. Yeah, yeah.
Allen Druffel (07:05):
So we, yeah. We went and sprayed underneath the hot wire, and you have to maintain that. It's not just a once and done. Yeah, totally. So you're always out there doing something with the cows.
Ryan Boylan (07:15):
Yeah, that's great. So, just jumping back to the cover crops specifically though. Yeah. I know you've came and spoke at a bunch of conservation district events Um, and a bunch of years ago, I remember you said, I'm just like throwing things at the wall until they stick.
Allen Druffel (07:29):
Yeah, I could have. Sounds like me.
Ryan Boylan (07:31):
<laugh>. Was there any, so if you've been experimenting with this stuff for 10 years, was there anything that has stuck or that you've continued to do? It could be like, mixes certain species, like whatever.
Allen Druffel (07:41):
Yeah. Not in the cover crop world. It seems like radishes and turnips. I, I like growing those. Part of it is just the, the visual reward. You get the big things out in your field. And, and I'm not sure they're doing a lot for our soil. One thing I've pulled out of like, more than just covers is multi-species stuff. Is starting to do some, interseeding. And I'm, I'm doing that on forage crops. We're gonna push that a little bit more this year. We're gonna do barley, oats, peas, and flax. And there's, I think they call it pillage with the barley and oats. Mm-Hmm. And, and that's fairly common, but adding the flax in there really does seem to help with the soil.
Ryan Boylan (08:16):
Hmm. So, yeah. And I, you've told me in the past, you like flax.
Allen Druffel (08:19):
I love flax. I don't know what it does. I know there's, some mycorrhizal reaction with oats and feeding fungi in the soil. I, I, that's proven. And maybe that's it. Whatever it's worth. I really like flax. I tried to grow flax straight as a crop. It's okay. It, if the market's there, you can make a little bit of money on it. logistically, because we're doing it on small acreages, we aren't just like, set up to go hammer it out, do a really good job. It makes it a little more difficult.
Ryan Boylan (08:49):
Yeah. Do you think, um, we've just been talking about this a lot lately. Interseeding or intercropping, maybe like a commodity with flax or like something like that. It seems like they can do this in Canada. They, there's, they're doing it. Yeah. And maybe the infrastructure isn't quite ready here, but if it was, do you think that'd be something that you would do or other folks would do? Or is it a good idea even like, I don't know.
Allen Druffel (09:10):
I think it's a good idea. I mean, I like new ideas. Whether they're good ideas, they're new ideas and they're fun. Something else to do. But I don't know. I, I mean, they're making money. They're financially, it's proven in Canada. I think, the rainfall patterns are different. And with summer rain, I think maybe there's a little bit more opportunity to harvest that moisture, where we gotta store it all in the spring and winter. Our crops just seem to behave differently than theirs do. But I know there's other farmers in the area. They're doing peas and canola. We did, we're doing the flax and oats, flax and garbs is one that we've tried. That worked pretty good. Um, other than that, yeah, I know there's more to it. Or like when I did my flax and garbs, it actually financially was pretty good. Did it until, until I had to take it to the cleaner.
Ryan Boylan (09:59):
Yeah. That's what I was gonna ask. Yeah. <laugh> did, did you get like dinged when you got it?
Allen Druffel (10:03):
Oh, but, well, it did not dinged. I went into it eyes wide open recognizing that I was gonna have flax seed and garb seed together. Mm-Hmm. And we had to go pay to have it cleaned. And I didn't recognize how expensive that was gonna be, and that took all the profit out of it.
Ryan Boylan (10:17):
Yeah. Bummer.
Allen Druffel (10:18):
Yeah. But it was pretty cool, you know, so it, it brought the, garbanzos to maturity earlier, and so our harvest was actually earlier. Flax and garbs are typically late. We're gonna push those into September, and the weather can start changing. We can get more water. We were harvesting that two weeks before anybody else was cutting a garb. And so that could be a, a pretty big deal.
Ryan Boylan (10:42):
Yeah. If we could get 'em cleaned.
Allen Druffel (10:46):
Yeah. Cleaned, yeah. I, if, if I was gonna do this on large acreage and I set up my own cleaner, had the infrastructure ready to go. Yeah. I, I, I think so. But taking that next step from a 10 acre play around trial to a hundred acres or 250 or a thousand, that's a big step.
Ryan Boylan (11:07):
What do you think about like a, I'm sort of getting off track here, but like a mobile cleaning unit, <laugh>, would that, is that possible? Like, if, if there was a business out there where somebody would like come and you could just like dump it into a mobile cleaning system, would that be something that folks would be doing?
Allen Druffel (11:24):
Oh, probably not. Yeah. again, it's the infrastructure. Yeah. You know, you, you think about a mobile cleaning system, you're gonna have to have one truck in and two trucks out.
Ryan Boylan (11:35):
Out. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (11:35):
Yeah. And so now you have three trucks sitting in the field to, just sort this stuff. And so there's, like I said, there's more to it. All of this stuff sounds awesome.
Ryan Boylan (11:45):
Yeah, totally. <laugh>
Allen Druffel (11:47):
And it, and it sounds awesome in January.
Ryan Boylan (11:49):
<laugh>
Allen Druffel (11:50):
In August, that's a different story.
Ryan Boylan (11:53):
Right, right. Right. Yeah. You know, all we wanna do is get the crop in and, and usually by August, I'm so frustrated and, and frankly tired of farming, I’m just burn out. Yeah. And it's a lot. Yeah. So you, you lose sight of, of your goals in the winter pretty quickly.
Ryan Boylan (12:08):
Yeah, it's also interesting, I heard the guys from PNW talk, a couple summers ago, and they were like, yeah, we can like separate and clean seed, but you can't just like, show up with, we need like a big heads up. Yeah. And then like, you're gonna have to pay, like you were saying, you're gonna have to pay for it. So,
Allen Druffel (12:23):
Yeah. No, yeah. And most of their, our local co-ops that, that have the ability to clean, are willing to do it. But again, yeah. It's, it's the planning. They have to dedicate space just for that. And when it's on a small scale, dedicating that space is pretty difficult.
Ryan Boylan (12:37):
Yeah. So it's not worth it for them. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (12:39):
Yeah. Or they make it worth it for them, and then we can't afford to do it.
Ryan Boylan (12:43):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Um, so can we get into your, adventures in cattle? Yeah.
Allen Druffel (12:50):
Yeah, oh yeah. <laugh>.
Ryan Boylan (12:51):
I feel like you have like a really good story. I mean, you, we had an event last week called the Alternative Cropping Symposium, and Allen told a really good story about that, but just about how he got into it. So maybe could you talk about that experience?
Allen Druffel (13:02):
Yeah, it was wild <laugh>.
Allen Druffel (13:05):
I I've never been a cowboy. Yeah. I've never been around. My grandfather had cattle, my dad didn't have cattle, and my dad never liked him. And I, I never understood. We, we'd have one or two cows across the road when I was a kid, and we'd raise 'em, but he never wanted cattle. And so three years ago, well, as in 2018 when we moved onto the homestead, we got some cows as lawnmowers, and they were fine. Mm-Hmm. Had five cows on 10 acres. they came in June, mowed the lawn left in September when the lawn was mowed. And so they were great at getting a pasture down. And they gave me this false sense of comfort around cows. I thought, oh, geez, these things aren't too bad. They're pretty calm. They stay on the fence. They just kind of do what they're supposed to do.
And so then in 2022, we partnered with a cattle operation outta Oregon and went big. And so it started with, about 70 acres of cover crop. And we were a little unsure on the number of cattle that were gonna come. It turned out to be 180 pair. So we had 180 mamas and 180 babies. And a few bulls running around. And we weren't ready. At all. You know, we had the fence in and the cover crop was planted. We invested a ton of money into water infrastructure, but we weren't ready for 'em. The, the crop didn't grow. It was the one of the wettest Junes we've ever had on record. It was super cold. And they came and ate that entire cover crop in about two weeks. And we didn't have any backup plan. And so it was, it was a bit of a nightmare. Ended up grazing some alfalfa just to get 'em something to eat. And then we moved, um, over into some canyon that luckily we found, and that was through a lot of phone calls and a lot of scrambling and, and got them outta there, hoped the recover crop would regrow, but it never caught up.
Ryan Boylan (14:56):
Yeah. So, so, so then they just spent the rest of the summer in the canyon, or did they come back?
Allen Druffel (15:00):
No, they came back. Unfortunately.
Ryan Boylan (15:02):
<laugh> Yeah.
Allen Druffel (15:04):
I didn't really want 'em back. I was already burnt out on em, after about a month. And so, no, they went and spent a few weeks away and, and we just let you know, hope the cover crop grew and went out there and put some more seeds in the ground. Some warm season stuff that I was hoping in that July timeframe had enough moisture, it'd pop right out of the ground and really grow and give some feed for those cows, but it just wasn't enough. And then we kept moving 'em, you know, we kept, then we took off some barley o hay, and that always regrows. And so there's some good growth there and, and you don't get all the windrows. So we moved them over into that field, grazed that as long as we could. And then as soon as we got the weed off, we put 'em up on stubble and let 'em graze through the chaff rows and, pick on that. But we were just behind. Yeah. Too many cows. Not enough alternative pasture. It was, it didn't work.
Ryan Boylan (15:55):
Yeah. It just didn't work. How did you get in touch with the cattle operation in Oregon?
Allen Druffel (16:00):
it was actually through the conservation district. I met, met somebody. Oh, awesome.
Ryan Boylan (16:04):
Yeah. That's amazing. <laugh>. Cool. Thats good to know.
Allen Druffel (16:07):
Well, I dunno if it was good or bad. <laugh>.
Ryan Boylan (16:10):
Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (16:12):
It was good. I learned so much. Yeah. And it was, it was, it's, now I can laugh at it. Now I'm okay with it. But, you know, after weeks and weeks of phone calls from my neighbors about cows in their yards, it, it gets tiring.
Ryan Boylan (16:27):
Can you tell that story about what you did for your neighbors? Like at the end <laugh>?
Allen Druffel (16:32):
Oh, at the <laugh>. So yeah, we, we had a few incidents and…the Whitman County Fair, I was up there all day and I came home and about nine o'clock at night, I got a phone call from our neighbor. And they said, Hey, Allen, do you know if your cows are in? And I said, I have no idea. It's dark out. She goes, well, I have about a hundred cows in my front yard.
Ryan Boylan (16:51):
<laugh>
Allen Druffel (16:52):
And I said, oh, those, well, those are not my cows, but I think I'm responsible for 'em.
Ryan Boylan (16:56):
<laugh>. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (16:58):
So we had that, and then they were in neighbor's wheat. they, they were just everywhere. So at the end of the year, I went down to Costco and I bought about five freezer packs or, the vacuum packs of Costco steaks. And we brought 'em up, sorted 'em out, did family sizes for all our neighbors and vacuum packed them with the baked potato and an asparagus. And I wrote little notes and I said, hope, I hope you like your cows on the barbecue rather than your front yard.
Ryan Boylan (17:24):
<laugh>. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (17:25):
And just tried to repair relationships. And luckily had great neighbors. I don't think they were ever broke. So, but, talking to 'em and, and, and just making sure they understood that this isn't exactly what we wanted for myself as well as them.
Ryan Boylan (17:40):
Everybody else.
Allen Druffel (17:41):
Yeah. <laugh>.
Ryan Boylan (17:42):
So like the, and then the end of that year, it seems like you weren't gung-ho to get cows again. <laugh>.
Allen Druffel (17:49):
No, I was done. Yeah. No, I, by the end of that, I, I told her, we're done. We'll, never, ever, ever have cows. I, it's too much work. You can't keep 'em in. There's too much logistics. You, you have to have alternative pasture. That's huge. Having that alternative spot. So if you get ahead or behind, or you need to do something in the field. Just grazing them in one little spot until we get this really dialed it's not, it's not realistic. And having a hard start time, that's gotta be weather dependent. You gotta really be able to pivot quickly, you know, when we crop, you always have time. And that's how my mind works, is I'm, I'm a and farmer. Yeah. And boy, the cows, it's, you know, if a cow's thirsty, they gotta drink. Yeah. You, you have to fix that now. It's not an hour, it's now. And when they're walking towards the highway, same thing. And so it's, it's just a different mindset. I, it's, and, and I don't know that I'm cut out for it <laugh>, so.
Ryan Boylan (18:44):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. <laugh>. Do you mind talking a little bit about like, the arrangement you had with the cattle operation?
Allen Druffel (18:51):
Yeah. That first one?
Ryan Boylan (18:53):
Yeah.
Allen Druffel (18:54):
Yeah. That was, contractual. And so we were gonna get paid on the AUM, so that's an animal unit per month. And so a mom and a baby, our one animal unit. And so if they would spend a month on our farm, we'd get 26 bucks. And so that's $26 an AUM. when we pivoted and had to go onto the alfalfa, we had to set something up kinda last minute. 'Cause that alfalfa had significant value. When we were haying it, hay was up like 2 20, 2 50 a ton. Oh, wow. And so there, there was a lot of value there. Yeah. And I wasn't willing just to go put 'em on, on the AUM because I didn't want, I, I wanted to hay it. I didn't wanna graze it, but we had to.
And so we, we did that. We worked out a payment for that, brought 'em back. And, and that was it. They were in charge of the fencing. They were in charge of keeping 'em in. They were in charge of making sure they had water. I had to supply it. So I put a, a reservoir up on top of the hill that can gravity to our whole home farm. And as long as that was full, that was the extent of me providing the water. They had to get the hoses and everything else ran. And so, yeah. And when, when somebody's not from here, the geography matters. Yeah. And so they had a cattleman close that was helping manage these cows, but it, it soon got just overwhelming for 'em.
Ryan Boylan (20:15):
Yeah, were they, were they out there like every day? Was there a cowboy out there checking?
Allen Druffel (20:19):
At least every other. Yeah. They had to be. Yeah. I mean, that's, they were just with the sheer numbers. So, and maybe on, you know, if you had the right amount of feed and everything was going smooth where those cows wanted to be in, I think you could get away with, you know, every couple of days as long as you had somebody at least watching, you know, and since I lived there, it made it a lot easier. Yeah. If these were remote, somebody has to be there every day. Every day.
Ryan Boylan (20:44):
Yeah. And then would you say that water was one of, of the biggest challenges? Or no.
Allen Druffel (20:51):
Well yeah, definitely. But I mean, it started out with too much water. With rain. You know, it was swampy when we had those cows out there. but just getting the cattle water. Yeah. It's, man, they drink a lot. Yeah. I thought, well, I could just take a truck out there and, they can, they can drink off of that truck. That should work. You know, 180 pair would drink 3000 gallons a day when it's hot. And so that's a lot of water to be moving. And, and we, we aren't set up during our harvest, our grain harvest to be go hauling water for cattle. And so to get that set up, and now I'm set up, it's easier. So I just did that. Luckily, if I wouldn't have had my my reservoir up on top of the hill and been prepared for this, it, it wouldn't have went near as well as it did.
Ryan Boylan (21:34):
Yeah. Yeah. That's good, huh.
Allen Druffel (21:37):
And it didn't go well <laugh>.
Ryan Boylan (21:39):
<laugh>. So, okay. So the end of that first year, you're like, I'm never doing this again.
Allen Druffel (21:44):
Yep. I was done.
Ryan Boylan (21:45):
But then what happened?
Allen Druffel (21:47):
Yeah. Then FLOURISH happened.
Ryan Boylan (21:49):
<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (21:50):
So, yeah, Tami called I and said, you know, we have this thing called FLOURISH. Said, oh, what's that? That sounds good. And she said, well, it's covers and cows. I said, I'm out.
Ryan Boylan (22:01):
And said, I just one real, real quick, just for everybody that's listening, Tami Stubbs was a former employee of the Palouse Conservation District that helped start the program.
Allen Druffel (22:08):
Yeah. Yeah. She was instrumental in getting me roped into this. And so, and I say roped in 'cause I'm, <laugh>.
Ryan Boylan (22:13):
Yeah. Pun intended. Yeah. <laugh>.
Allen Druffel (22:18):
Yeah, I, there was a financial incentive to keep trying. And then it, it was really the, the beauty of the program and programs like this is it allows us to really experiment on things that maybe aren't really in our comfort zone. And it mitigates our risk. And so by, by having that ability, I thought, you know what, I'm gonna try again. We're gonna, we can't give up on the cows. But we scaled back huge. I went from 180 pair to, it fluctuated a little bit this summer between 20 and 30 steers. And that was a much more manageable number. And I partnered up with, local cattleman Dallas Stout, who he raised, runs cattle, about five miles south of my house. And so, and then he also helps us out on the farm, and he's a friend. Yeah. That's great. And I, I have a saying, you know, if, if you're in a partnership, it's friendship before partnership, and that's super important. And so that, and that's worked with Dallas and I. So we, yeah. He, he, he's helping me out. He's got my cows right now, so. Oh, good. Yeah. One of my heifers is about to, have a calf any day. About to become a cow dad. <laugh> never done that.
Ryan Boylan (23:36):
<laugh> That's cool. So he, he, he'll do, and that arrangement is he'll take them in the winter and do like all the calving and stuff and then bring them back out.
Allen Druffel (23:43):
Yeah. To a certain extent. <laugh>. I mean, that, this is pretty informal. So he has three, three cows of mine. All three had three heifers and so two of them are pregnant. One of them we can't get pregnant, so she's going to the sale and so yeah, he, it's, if I had a bunch of cattle, I don't think this would work.
Ryan Boylan (24:05):
<laugh>. Yeah, totally.
Allen Druffel (24:06):
We're trying. So he's putting up with that for now. And it's a pretty loose relationship. We're both learning. Learning if we like doing it, if it's worth doing. 'Cause he gets, that's the other challenge that we run into is, is grazing in the mountains is pretty inexpensive. And so that's the alternative that, that most cattlemen in this area do. Is they have either BLM contracts or private landowner contracts and, and they're taking their cattle to the mountain. So they, that's where they summer.
Ryan Boylan (24:38):
Yeah. That's funny. I hadn't really thought about that. They probably don't have to pay that much to get a lease and then.
Allen Druffel (24:44):
Nope, not, not if you compare what they have to pay in the mountains to what we need to make grazing covers in a farm field, financially viable. Not, not a money maker. Just to break even. It doesn't even come close.
Ryan Boylan (24:58):
Doesn't pencil out. Even with like, with transportation costs too. Huh.
Allen Druffel (25:01):
Yep. They can haul 'em a long ways and not pay much.
Ryan Boylan (25:04):
Huh. Interesting. And so that's cool. Um, so you, did you say how many acres you were grazing the 20, 30 cows on?
Allen Druffel (25:11):
30.
Ryan Boylan (25:11):
Oh, it was just the 30. Okay, cool. Yeah. And then the, so that the fencing that you put in this year, that was your, your, you bought that?
Allen Druffel (25:19):
Yes. And did it all, I actually bought it from the, the grazers that were there the first year.
Ryan Boylan (25:22):
Oh, that's right. <laugh>. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (25:26):
Oh yeah.
Ryan Boylan (25:27):
Yeah.
Allen Druffel (25:28):
I wasn't sure it worked based on the first year. Turns out it did. So <laugh>.
Ryan Boylan (25:33):
<laugh>. That's good. And yeah, you'll stick with like, the same stocking rates this next year, you think like 20-30?
Allen Druffel (25:39):
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like one to one. One, one animal per acre. and that's gonna be a year to year thing, and you're gonna have to be able to go up and down with that based on what the crop is doing. So, but yeah, one to one. And then we, last year we got outran with the cover crop. It was growing too well, so we swathed grazed it, came in right after the oats started heading out 'cause I did not want 'em to go to seed. Or the triticale. So we swathed that, laid it down in windrows and then put the cattle on it. And they did a really good job of kicking through it and, eating and eating those windrows a lot better than I thought. I was worried it was gonna mold.
Ryan Boylan (26:17):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But that happened like pretty quick, huh?
Allen Druffel (26:20):
Yeah.
Ryan Boylan (26:21):
But did you have to do anything, did the cows pretty much just terminate the cover crop then? Or did you spray?
Allen Druffel (26:26):
Yeah, we had to terminate. With herbicide. So.
Ryan Boylan (26:29):
Yeah, that's cool. Um, what was, it was, so it was mainly like a forage mix that you had? Do you remember?
Allen Druffel (26:36):
Yeah. I don't remember what was in it. It had a lot of barley oats in it. So, and I know sunflowers were in there. Cows don't seem to like sunflowers. It's kind of cool. They walk around them. And so yeah.
Ryan Boylan (26:46):
Really <laugh>, that's funny.
Allen Druffel (26:47):
If you do a good job grazing, where you really get it mulched down, they'll leave the sunflowers. And so you'll just have little sunflowers out in the field. Kinda pretty.
Ryan Boylan (26:56):
Was there, do you, was there phacelia in there? Do you know?
Allen Druffel (27:00):
I don't think so.
Ryan Boylan (27:01):
Okay. That's funny. I saw a lot of phacelia in a lot of the plots, and I couldn't remember if there were any in yours.
Allen Druffel (27:03):
Oh, was it good? Should I? I’m looking for advice.
Ryan Boylan (27:06):
I don't know, I mean. Well, it's, it's interesting. We have these, like small farming friends. They, I don't know if it's good for grazing. I have no idea. But they think it's like the best cover crop.
Allen Druffel (27:14):
Really?
Ryan Boylan (27:15):
They always use phacelia. Yeah. What's they use phacelia and like cereal rye. <laugh>
Allen Druffel (27:19):
Oh, well, I'm probably not gonna use cereal rye.
Ryan Boylan (27:20):
I know exactly.
Allen Druffel (27:22):
What's the, what are they trying to get outta the phacelia?
Ryan Boylan (27:24):
I, it's, it's, it's mycorrhizal.
Allen Druffel (27:26):
Okay. Yeah.
Ryan Boylan (27:28):
I, I don't know all the, and yeah, I'm like outta my depth here, but, they really like it. And yeah. I should ask them more questions.
Allen Druffel (27:34):
I'd be interested in that because that's, again, that's why we did flax. Is, is it's shown to be, have a mycorrhizal interaction with oats. And I, I, I can't put my finger on why the oat crop is better and why the soil is better after flax and oats, but it is. So, yeah.
Ryan Boylan (27:50):
That's cool. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (27:52):
I don't need to know how it works as long as it does.
Ryan Boylan (27:55):
Yeah, I've, I've thought about this a lot. There's like these smaller farms, maybe they're like small organic farms, but they're always like, cover cropping every year in their beds. And I was like, oh, I'd love to connect like the big farmers or the small farmers <laugh>. I mean, I know it's very different 'cause it's like irrigated and, yeah. But even just like sharing ideas.
Allen Druffel (28:10):
And margins, the financial margins are so, so much different.
Ryan Boylan (28:16):
Oh, for sure.
Allen Druffel (28:17):
Yeah. And so you invest, you know, a hundred dollars into a organic farm on an acre. Yeah. That's, that's a lot. You multiply that by a thousand. And all of a sudden it's a lot.
Ryan Boylan (28:30):
<laugh>. It's a whole lot. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (28:32):
Yeah and so, a hundred dollars an acre is, is an unrealistic number for us to do almost anything.
Ryan Boylan (28:37):
Yeah. That's cool. Um, was there, so is there anything that you are gonna do differently in those plots next year that you did this year? In terms like seeding or?
Allen Druffel (28:47):
Oh, I, you know, I, anything with farming, you don't really know what you're doing until you're doing it. And so I planted fall wheat on those acres with the intention I was gonna take it to harvest. And now I'm watching wheat price plummet. And decided, eh, why don't I put the cows right in the same spot? So I'm gonna interseed spring crops into my winter wheat stand and graze the winter wheat and, the covers together. And it should be good. I'm hoping I can get the cattle out there a little bit earlier. 'Cause we have a lot of good growth. And that wheat should start taking off here.
Ryan Boylan (29:22):
Yeah. Especially this year.
Allen Druffel (29:23):
Yeah. Yeah. It's big right now.
Ryan Boylan (29:25):
Yes yeah I know. <laugh>.
Allen Druffel (29:25):
So for February.
Ryan Boylan (29:27):
Yeah, yeah, it's insane.
Allen Druffel (29:28):
So, I dunno, I maybe, that middle of May, maybe we can get the cattle out there a couple weeks earlier. But that'll all depend. Depends when the snow stops.
Ryan Boylan (29:38):
Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Um, all right. So shifting gears a little bit, I just have like questions about like, programs and like maybe research in general. Because to me it always seems like even at the conservation district, we're like five steps behind what everybody's trying to do. And there's like a, like, I don't know if you do this, but like, SAP testing's one example where like, a lot of folks are doing it. And then the, the researchers are like, we don't know if what this, what does this do? Like, but people are doing it, you know? Um, are there things that like you would like to see either research or like you could do or we could do that would help offset risk that we're not doing? Or like, it's really just ideas like brainstorming.
Allen Druffel (30:17):
It’s hard. I, you know, as a farmer, we only have to prove it to ourselves. As a research organization, you have to prove it and follow the scientific method and actually prove it. It's easy to prove something to yourself even if it's wrong. Typically you can find enough information to make yourself think that it's Right.
Ryan Boylan (30:36):
<laugh> Yeah.
Allen Druffel (30:37):
Yeah. So, that, that's what's hard. So we'll get an idea and we can go implement it on the farm and we can do our experiments and go, yeah. That, that's fine. But then by the time that a research organization or a conservation district gets, it even gets the idea. You gotta take a year to even figure out the idea, implement it the first time and then start to replicate it. And then, and so that's, I think in agriculture, that's why there's that sense of these researchers are behind. I'm not sure they are. I'm just think they're doing it the correct way where we're again, only proving it to ourselves.
Ryan Boylan (31:15):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny, and that kind of ties into what you were saying earlier about just like, if you're amateurizing what you're doing for your soil over time. Because it's not just like you plant a cover crop once and then like, that's gonna.
Allen Druffel (31:25):
That was my original thought.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. <laugh>.
Allen Druffel (31:29):
This is the silver bullet.
Ryan Boylan (31:30):
<laugh>.
Allen Druffel (31:32):
<laugh>. It's not.
Ryan Boylan (31:33):
<laugh>. No, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Allen Druffel (31:35):
Which I, it's not frustrating. But sometimes you read an article and it makes it seem like one cover crop will change your farm forever. That's just not the case.
Ryan Boylan (31:46):
No.
Allen Druffel (31:47):
So, or maybe it is and I just don't know what I'm doing.
Ryan Boylan (31:49):
Well, no, I like, Frank Wolf, one of your neighbors, he's another farmer nearby. He would always say it's like, not always rainbows and unicorns <laugh>. Like, try this stuff. And then it just like doesn't.
Allen Druffel (31:59):
Yeah. Sometimes the unicorn dies.
Ryan Boylan (32:00):
<laugh>. Yeah. <laugh> The cows get into your neighbors <laugh>. Um, was there, oh, I, so I've maybe two more questions. The first is, so it seems to me, and I could be totally off on this, but even since I started working at the conservation district eight years ago, something's shifting. Um, like, and maybe it's just because like the whole idea of direct seedings been around for a long time and people are doing that, but now this like regenerative ag, whatever you wanna call it, like soil health push. Do you think that's happening? Or is it just the circle I work in, in perception? It seems like more and more people are more and more interested in this, and I'm just wondering why.
Allen Druffel (32:40):
Yeah I, I dunno. Because that's kind of the circle I run with. Yeah. And so my, the peers that I, I am around most often are thinking the same thing. And I think it is definitely becoming more mainstream in agriculture.
Ryan Boylan (32:55):
That's what I was wondering too.
Allen Druffel (32:57):
Yeah, there's, there's a lot more talk about carbon amendments even from the big Ag retailers. Like, that's, that's in their blends now. And it's just a commonplace. And so, yeah. I do think there's a big push. I do think there is a, a change in agriculture happening right now. Where the emphasis is on the soil, not just a crop.
Ryan Boylan (33:15):
Yeah. Which is cool. Yeah. And do you think that's driven by, I mean, there's obviously market forces drive a lot of things. But like the price of inputs, going up?
Allen Druffel (33:23):
I think that's part of it.
Ryan Boylan (33:24):
Yeah.
Allen Druffel (33:25):
And I like to think it's just farmers being good stewards.
Ryan Boylan (33:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree.
Allen Druffel (33:31):
I hope that's part of it. And I think it is.
Ryan Boylan (33:33):
Yeah I mean, that's what everyone says.
Allen Druffel (33:35):
Well, yeah. That's the line we give people.
Ryan Boylan (33:37):
<laugh>. So I had this, I had this intern that worked for me my first year, and, he was great. I was like, at the end of his internship, I was like, what did, is there anything you learned this summer? And he's like, yeah, that farmers actually care about the soil. <laugh> <laugh>. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, man, it's,
Allen Druffel (33:56):
But that's a shift.
Ryan Boylan (33:57):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
Allen Druffel (33:58):
boy, you know, 40 years ago, I'm not sure they even thought about the soil. That's, we haven't farmed very long. you know the, our farm was homesteaded in 1876. And so that's when the native Palouse soils in on our farm started to be farmed. It's only 148 years. In geological time. That's a blink. Barely even a blink. I am not even sure you got your eyes closed yet. And so those, the first generation, so I'm the fifth, the first generation, they did not have any synthetic inputs. So they did it with covers. There was plow down, clovers and plow down alfalfa. And they do things more organically. They cared. They cared. That's, but that's all they knew. I'm not sure they knew how much, knew that what they were doing was that good for the soil.
Allen Druffel (34:46):
And, then, you know, the green revolution and the in introduction of anhydrous ammonia, we kind of forgot. We started to think we can inject into the soil whatever our growing crops need. And that's the way to do it. And then we came to the realization that, well, that's, that's not great for the environment. It's not great for the soil. It's not great for our, the, the web of life in our soil. And so now we're realizing that, and we're realizing that there's more going on beneath the surface, and that we need to foster that environment. And so it's driven, driven by market forces, financially, that, that's the biggest one. I could, I make money just putting synthetic inputs in right now. Yeah. I’d make as much or more money doing that. I'm not positive I could do that in 30 years. I really did start to see a, a degradation of our soil, just watching our soil tests every year. And then we went into no-till thinking we could repair soil with just no-till and doing the same old, same old. That didn't really work, and we plateaued. We, we made a little bit of improvement and it just kinda stopped. And so now we're focusing on biology and carbon inputs Yeah. And reduction in synthetic fertility.
Ryan Boylan (35:59):
That's cool.
Allen Druffel (35:59):
So, and we've been pretty successful.
Ryan Boylan (36:02):
What, so the, when you said you plateaued, was that like organic matter that's data plateau, or, I don't know.
Allen Druffel (36:09):
That's kind of the, the, that's the benchmark that I use. Yeah. Is organic matter. Cation exchange capacity, CCC is an important one that we watch. But just watching our crops and just watching the soil. It, you know, we'd take a, a soil probe out there and we'd get hard pans. We could find strategization from fertility layers, and it wasn't getting better. We thought all that'd go away, put a cover crop in, break that all up and it was gonna be like rainbows and unicorns.
Ryan Boylan (36:40):
Unicorns, yeah. <laugh>.
Allen Druffel (36:41):
There you go. <laugh>. So, yeah. And it wasn't, and so now we're realizing there's more to it. We gotta get all these salt heavy fertilizers reduced for now. I'm not sure we're gonna eliminate 'em. You know, I don't wanna pick on the term organic, but for me, there's, it's not conventional and organic that's going to be the answer. It's gonna be middle ground. There's gonna be some synthetic things that, that are gonna be beneficial to our, our farm management practices. But I do think it's a lot closer to the organic side than we are today.
Ryan Boylan (37:15):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (37:15):
But I just, I I I don't think it's black and white. Nothing in agriculture is black and white. There's so much gray.
Ryan Boylan (37:21):
Yeah. And like, trade-offs in so many different directions. <laugh>.
Allen Druffel (37:24):
Yeah. Yeah. And our topography on, on the pollute I organic's pretty tillage heavy. And that, that's erosion heavy for us. And so yeah, in the organic world, if you, you're in the right topography, the right geography, the right rainfall, it's great. And I and certain crops, it's better at than, than what we're growing. But yeah, there's, I'm, I'm sure there's a really good way to grow organic wheat and organic garbanzos. I just don't know it. And so I, I'm not there. Not there.
Ryan Boylan (37:57):
Yeah. No, that's yeah. <laugh>.
Allen Druffel (37:59):
And I don't even know if that's my goal.
Ryan Boylan (38:01):
No. Yeah. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (38:02):
I, yeah. I think my goal's in the middle.
Ryan Boylan (38:04):
So I think another thing I think about a lot is, well, two things that, we still know very little about the soil. I feel like, like there. You know, the, if you talk about like a soil ecosystem and they say like, I dont know what the quote is, in a spoonful of soil, there's as many organisms as humans in the world or something.
Allen Druffel (38:23):
Something wild like that. Yeah.
Ryan Boylan (38:24):
And so yeah. It seems like that that knowledge gap is like maybe getting smaller, hopefully like a lot of people are doing research because of this big push for like soil health and regenerative ag, which is cool.
Allen Druffel (38:34):
Yeah. I I'm more overwhelmed by it every year.
Ryan Boylan (38:37):
That's problem. Yeah, me too. I know, know.
Allen Druffel (38:38):
Yeah. The more I know, the less I know. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (38:41):
I, that's what's wild. And, and how everything interacts and, and you try one thing and that might be detrimental to something else. And so to start understanding that balance is where we need to be. And so I, I'm trying to do kind of the, not death by a thousand paper cuts, but improve by a thousand paper cuts. Anytime I can do something small to improve my overall management strategy, I'll try to take that small step. And if I can keep making enough small steps, maybe eventually it'll turn into something big.
Ryan Boylan (39:12):
Yeah.
Allen Druffel (39:13):
And so that's, that's the approach I'm doing on most of the farm. The FLOURISH acres, because I have that ability with, you know, a little bit of financial help, I can take a big step. I can put the cattle out there, I can do the cover crops, I can get rid of, almost all my synthetics and just go for it and really learn, you know, is maybe this extreme approach to strategy. So that's been really helpful. It's, it's been fun.
Ryan Boylan (39:41):
Cool. That's great.
Allen Druffel (39:42):
Sometimes.
Ryan Boylan (39:43):
<laugh>. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (39:43):
I hate it other times. <laugh>.
Ryan Boylan (39:45):
Yeah. I'm sure it's always another thing. And then the other thing I think is super interesting is like, you guys, your career, and I feel like we've talked about this in almost every podcast, but it's like 45 growing seasons maybe before you.
Allen Druffel (39:57):
Something like that. I'm not even sure I want it to be that long <laugh>.
Ryan Boylan (40:00):
Yeah. No, <laugh> say 30 to 40. And like, I just, the, the time it takes for things to change is a long time. Yeah. So it could be a whole career before.
Allen Druffel (40:13):
Yeah, I think it's gonna be a career. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's, but it's, it's our responsibility.
Ryan Boylan (40:18):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Allen Druffel (40:18):
Yeah. It's, I I really think that, you know, now that we have the knowledge and an understanding that maybe what we are doing isn't, isn't the best way. It's our responsibility to improve upon that. And so I'm sure I won't be where I wanna be at the end of my career. But hopefully I'm closer to what I think is, is a more environmentally friendly way to farm.
Ryan Boylan (40:37):
Yeah.
Allen Druffel (40:40):
And I, I, I don't want to get too bogged down in that because the most important thing on our farm is, is financial sustainability. We have to make money. We cannot invest back into the soil unless we're making money. And so I, we can try to sell this as, as, yes. We're just these great stewards and we're giving it all back to the land. But the reality is we do have to make money while doing it. So, yeah.
Ryan Boylan (41:05):
Do you have, um, is there any complications, I don't know how the farm works, but do you lease land and are you less likely to cover crop that or try some other things on leased land?
Allen Druffel (41:18):
Are any of my landlords listening?
Ryan Boylan (41:20):
<Laugh> We dont have to talk about this either.
Allen Druffel (41:21):
No, I, it's, it's most important is, is an open conversation with your landlords. What do they want? You know, do they, do they want a maximum return? Or do they wanna see some soil improvement? What, what's, what's their goals? And so we work with each other. And so if, if a landlord is, is particularly interested in soil health and trying to improve their soil, then, then yeah. We'll, we'll go out there. If they say, no, I don't want it, I just want max yield on these acres. We'll, we'll farm for the landlord.
Ryan Boylan (41:51):
Landlord.
Allen Druffel (41:52):
Yeah.
Ryan Boylan (41:52):
Yeah. Yeah. So that's the arrangement. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (41:55):
Yeah. So, I don't wanna get too bogged down into just this philosophy that I want. I can't push that on landlords.
Ryan Boylan (42:03):
And I think Yeah. And I appreciate that you said that like yeah, you need to make money. Like it's your profession, like business.
Allen Druffel (42:10):
Yeah. It's, that's our business. Yeah. So yeah. I, yeah. But, but, my business needs to look into the future towards the end of it. And so do I need to make all the money this year? No. No, I don't do, I wanna make it, you know, when I'm 60 Mm-Hmm. Yeah. I do <laugh>.
Ryan Boylan (42:26):
Yeah. <laugh>.
Allen Druffel (42:27):
So if I can better the soil in the next 20 years, and so I'm kind of on cruise control going into retirement. Yeah. That's cool. And then I, you know, what, what land I'm lucky enough to own at that point, I can lease out for above market value and make a little extra money. <laugh>. I'm all in. So,
Ryan Boylan (42:43):
Yeah. So I was talking to this soil scientist at WSU. And they were saying they were like a little scared about like all this talk about like regenerating biology in the soil to create a sustainable system because at some point, like you'll start mining all the nutrients that crops will need from the soil. Right. Like you, it's, he was, their take was like, you're always gonna have to add something to it. And I'm just, yeah, wondering what your thoughts are on that. Like, and you kind of talked about this earlier, and that's what made me think of it is yeah. Like you're, you're doing these things to create better soil, but the bottom line is you're probably always gonna be have to adding something.
Allen Druffel (43:21):
I don't think you can take out as much as we take out without adding something in.. What I mean by that is, you know, at the end of the year, it's, you're, you're, you're raising a crop of commodity, and so you take out x number of pounds of wheat or garbanzos or canola, those seeds contain nutrients. You've taken that from the soil. A lot of that has been harvested through sunlight and oxygen and, and the air, but not all of it. But to get our soil cycling so that they're releasing the mineralized nutrients that are there. If, if you look at a, a big bubble, a circle that a plant needs and what's in the soil, the part of the bubble that is the biggest by far, are nutrients in our soil that are not plant available. And that's because we don't have the biology to release those. Yeah. Those,
Ryan Boylan (44:10):
Yeah.
Allen Druffel (44:11):
And they're in a mineral form. Yep. And so we got a lot out there, our phosphate levels. I know, that's
Ryan Boylan (44:16):
What I always talk about that. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (44:18):
And I can't remember the quote on that. It's like there's a thousand years of phosphate out there. And, or some ridiculous number. But it's tied up.
Ryan Boylan (44:26):
And yeah, the plants can't get it.
Allen Druffel (44:28):
Yeah. And so how do we, how do we make that available?
Ryan Boylan (44:32):
That's cool. Um, and then maybe my last question is just like, it could be either the FLOURISH work that you've done this last year or just cover cropping and grazing in general. Were there any surprises or things that you learned? It's kinda like the good, the bad, the ugly <laugh>. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (44:47):
Yeah. I, I don't want to be a cowboy. I, I don't, I, yeah. I thought it's not that hard. It's kind of romantic. You, you get to go out there and run the cattle and, and you know, you're the Marlboro man. And the reality of it is, it's more mud and picking up fences and fixing fence and putting in water. It's grunt work. And you gotta be there. Well, when the cows get out, you gotta go home and you gotta put 'em back in. Yeah. And so, I've, I've learned that, you know, they're a dy- cattle are a dynamic enterprise. And it is always changing. So I used to always say, if the wheat's not growing, I'm not going. And I kinda like that <laugh> So,
Ryan Boylan (45:26):
<laugh>. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (45:29):
All yeah, there was that, you know, and then, and some of the things, you know, how much you can affect soil in one year. I've done more to harm our soil in one year than I think I've ever done to make it better. In a single shot. So a lot of compaction issues, weed issues that could be introduced through cover crops and the unknown. And so you gotta really be careful, what you, what you plant when you put things in, how you do things, what your next step in the rotation is. Herbicide carryovers can be a big issue. That I didn't realize. And I, you know, the more I realized this herbicide carryover thing, the more I think we might have a, a bigger cocktail of carryovers in our soil than we know.
Ryan Boylan (46:11):
Can you, can you just talk about that a little bit? Like what happened with the herbicide carryover?
Allen Druffel (46:15):
Oh, just with different cover crops, things that I thought would grow after certain herbicides that are on label, but they're pretty alternative. And so they are specifically mentioned. They'll be in like the other crops part or, just farther down in the label that I'm not used to going to. And so I, I do think that we have this cocktail in our soils of just the stuff that we're applying. And we don't understand how it's interacting with the biology in our soil.
Ryan Boylan (46:51):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Allen Druffel (46:52):
We just don't.
Ryan Boylan (46:53):
Yeah.
Allen Druffel (46:53):
So, and it's always changing.
Ryan Boylan (46:55):
<laugh> Yeah, for sure.
Allen Druffel (46:56):
Yeah, it is. Yeah. So anything we can do to try to reduce that and get back to a more, you know, organic cycling of this has gotta be beneficial.
Ryan Boylan (47:06):
Yeah. For sure. It's great. Um, well this has been great, Allen. Thank you so much for joining us.
Allen Druffel (47:10):
Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you.
Ryan Boylan (47:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is great. All right, well, thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time.
Conclusion
This podcast was brought to you by the Palouse Conservation District. Funding is provided by USDA's Conservation Innovation Grants Program. To find out more information, check out the FLOURISH website at inwFLOURISH.org. Thanks so much for listening, and keep an eye out for our next episode.
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